UX designer to novelist - An interview

What did you want to be when you grew up?

I knew really early on that I had to be a writer. I had a very vivid dream when I was five or six about discovering the plot of a book and when I woke up, I was like I have to write that, but then I realized I forgot what the plot was.

Hahaha that’s so real, that still happens to me today.

That has haunted me ever since. I used to write fanfiction and was a big reader so I always knew this was the world I wanted to go into. 

Did your parents give you books? How did you discover reading?

My mom was studying English in college in Vietnam in Saigon when the city fell during the Vietnam war. She never finished her degree but she’s always fostered that in me even though she doesn’t speak English well. She would take me to kids book related events like the Harry Potter midnight release parties (back when that wasn’t problematic).

When I majored in Journalism in undergrad, she didn’t bat an eye, she was encouraging.

I was going to ask, what did you major in?

I was pretty idealistic. I wanted to be a journalist—I imagined I’d be a fancy travel journalist working for Vogue. That’s not what happened though. I worked for local newspapers in Seattle and it was horrible. I only lasted for a year.

Writing pays so awful, especially in journalism. I had so much student debt. I couldn’t survive off of it.

So, I did a software engineering bootcamp and worked as a programmer for a year. But I still hated that.

Then I applied to grad school. I went to University of Washington for the Human Centered Design & Engineering program, and then worked as a UX designer at Google for a couple years.

But I found myself being pushed further and further away from the shore of what I wanted to do. During my entire time at Google, I kept writing in secret.

I’m not recommending this, but I would sometimes work on my book openly in the office. Like it would say “Chapter 16” on my laptop screen.

Ok, I kind of love the subversiveness. Also, big tech jobs are not always the best with boundaries so I understand trying to reclaim some of your time. I have to know, did people register what you were doing? 

I mean gender diversity in tech isn’t great, so they probably just thought jeez what a quirky girl.

I would have assumed it was some quirky UX designer thing. I once heard some designers saying “it wasn’t electric anymore” and I thought their laptop chargers at their desks weren’t working but they were talking about the color blue, so you never know.

Haha, yeah. I was fast at switching tabs too. ;)  

I think it’s great you got into tech from a bootcamp. I think it’s a good option and can open a lot of doors for folks even if it’s not where they stay. What did you like about programming? I love how you’re really following your personal north star of what works and doesn’t for you. 

I really don’t like authority. I don’t like the corporate structure. I like writing so much because I get to create my own worlds. I just knew working in big companies wasn’t who I had envisioned becoming and I felt such an urgency to write my book.

During my time at Google, I applied for an MFA in creative writing. I got in and I went for the first week, and that week I got an offer from a literary agent and so I dropped out.

I famously went to orientation and then never showed up again.

I just rely on my gut, even though I’m definitely wrong sometimes. I just knew tech was wrong for me, my skin was crawling, I can’t explain it.

That sounds awful, but it’s great you had such clarity. How did people in your life feel about all these changes?  Were they supportive? Or were you just like this is what I’m doing, opinions not welcome, no notes please.

 My mom was pretty happy when I pivoted to tech. She was worried about me financially in journalism.

She cried the day I quit Google. She was like you worked so hard, you did a programming bootcamp, a Master’s program just to quit. And I was like I’m just not happy.

I realized the longer I stayed in that type of corporate structure, the more entrenched I would be. I know it’s a privilege to quit. I had saved up money, I had stock from big tech.

Ok, I have to hear more about your whole MFA dropout moment. Were you already querying agents before you applied?

I had a short story collection that I queried with. My first agent signed me based on that short story collection. I was like F this, I don’t need this MFA program, I’m going to go be rich and famous. Spoiler, that’s not what happened at all.

The irony is that story collections often need the MFA backing and connections, the prestige, to get published. 

One editor at Simon & Schuster was like I love this but I don’t think it will sell, would you consider turning it into a novel?

How long did it take to revise?

Maybe six months. The end of my time at Google, during the pandemic, I spent so much time revising it into a novel.

And you did that while working full time?

Oh, and including her notes and a second revision, probably a year total.

Even finding creative uses of your time, how did you balance that with your job?

I don’t even really remember, maybe I’ve blocked it out, I just remember I didn’t have much of a life. I was devastated when my story collection didn’t sell. I doubted myself for dropping out of the MFA. I thought maybe I should just stay in tech.

And then there was this beacon of light when my now editor showed interest in a revision. I realized it was all or nothing, this was my big chance.

I stopped hanging out with friends. Before work, lunch, after work, I just wrote. I knew in my heart it would work out, I just had to write faster than I had ever written before. The original collection took me 5 years to write.

And we sold the revision to that editor, who’s still my editor today.

So then the book was published while you were at Hashicorp (corporate tech job #2)? Did you do a book tour? How did you balance that with having a day job?

I timed my book tour with the annual in person company conference. For example, I did an event in Seattle while I was there for work anyway.

I kept it quiet at work. I didn’t want them to conflate corporate Carolyn with my book.

But people started to find out when they saw me on Good Morning America (GMA).

Wait, what? Can we talk about this more. Also, tell readers a little more about the book. Would you call it upmarket, women’s literary, book club?

My original collection was pretty literary but I realized to write high literary you really need the MFA (so definitely some irony there) so I pivoted more to upmarket commercial fiction. Which has been better for me in the end, this has enabled me to pivot to screenwriting and playwriting.

Ok, how did you do Good Morning America with a day job?

I got picked for the GMA book club. My team called me 4 months before. We were so shocked and surprised. Getting picked for a book club is such a big deal, but getting picked as a debut novel, especially about a Vietnamese-American family from Orange County, felt unprecedented.

GMA came to Orange County and we filmed a segment together. It was surreal. It didn’t really hit me until they broadcast it.

I was in a meeting at my corporate job and someone in the Zoom told the whole call they saw me on GMA. She’d also got my book from the GMA book of the month club. She just announced this in a Zoom call full of people.

We’re good friends now, but I felt very awkward in the moment because not many people at work even knew I was even a writer.

Literally logistically, how did you do all this with your job? That’s incredible!

I used a bunch of PTO and was just determined to make it work.

When you finally quit the corporate world, was there a specific date you were targeting or saving towards? Or were you just like I can’t take it anymore?

I knew in my early thirties that I couldn’t do it anymore, my 33^rd birthday was approaching. I gave myself up to my birthday to quit. I cashed in my remaining PTO, I had savings, I had a partner who was very encouraging. These are all privileges. But this was my early 30s birthday present to myself.

I timed it so 2 months after I quit, I went to a writing residency I’d been accepted to. I sold my second book on proposal. That took 1.5 years to draft, it’s a family dramedy. And that book came out in April this year.

And then I have a third book coming out Fall 2026.

I had time since I quit! The time and affordance to write is how this has all happened. I really gambled on myself. I’ve been able to pivot quite a bit from novels to screenwriting to playwriting. 

Anything you can share about your third book?

It’s near future dystopian and the pitch is if the women in Handmaid's Tale formed a union. I’ve always wanted to write darker Sci-fi, but it’s hard to pivot genres.

But you’re really good at pivoting. 

I was able to pivot to screenwriting because my first book got optioned for a TV series and they offered me the chance to co-adapt the pilot. I wrote the pilot with a senior showrunner and from there I got into the Writers Guild of America (WGA). It’s been a series of really good luck.

Because I co-adapted it, that qualified me to join WGA. Which entitled me to get health insurance through them. And being in WGA opened the door to a playwriting fellowship. It’s been a series of stepping stones. Of saying yes to things that are offered to me (very Shonda Rhimes). And then each opportunity has opened new doors.

I’m surprised, some authors don’t say yes when offered the chance to adapt their own work.

Now, I’m in a year-long film / TV fellowship called Rideback Rise to adapt my third book into a feature film.

It just snowballed in the last couple years. I feel like a later bloomer.

I’m a firm believer that these things that look like they happen overnight are the results of years of preparation. You quite skillfully managed it so a lot of that preparatory time happened while you were also getting a corporate salary! And then you had the built-up fuel to launch. It’s very impressive. Your utter faith and certainty in yourself is really inspiring. There’s luck but you were looking for the opportunities, hungry for it, putting in the time writing, doing the work.

Tell me about the pivot to playwriting.

Yeah, publishing to theatre is only worse paychecks. I was a closeted theatre kid in high school. I had never seen a Vietnamese-American playwright up until 2016 when I saw Qui Nguyen's play Vietgone and then I realized that was a possibility to me.

I find freedom in theater.

One piece of advice, whatever you make your day job, always have another outlet. Writing is my day job now, and so theatre is the thing I want to explore.

I would ask if you regret leaving the corporate world, but I think I know the answer to that, so I’ll ask a different question. Is there anything you learned from the corporate world that has been useful that you take into your artistic pursuits?

I do miss the tech money and stability. My resume sounds good on paper, but it’s still a hustle. The money isn’t stable.

The one thing I learned from corporate America and especially in tech is not to take anything personally. When I get tagged in bad book reviews, it just washes off of me. I’ve seen worse come at me in peer performance reviews haha.

I finally feel like my own boss, like I’m in control.

Do you have any advice for your former self or other people on leaving the corporate world? People should not expect your success necessarily of course, it’s highly variable, but do you have any advice?

Well, my first agent, she’s my friend now and left agenting, she told me the rule of thumb is don’t quit your day job until after your third book. Because royalties might never come in, advances are sparse. I promised her this is what I would do and then instead I quit after my first book haha. She was like why?! But you have to just trust your gut. 

One of my MFA professors said not to quit until you’ve at least sold the book, but that’s a lower standard than your third book!

These things don’t happen overnight. The years spent toiling in anxiety, and maybe depression, aren’t wasted. Thinking about leaving, that first step, is often the hardest part.

I don’t want to encourage people to quit their jobs during tricky economic times. But just start. Just write the first sentence. You never know where it will go.

I love your story so much. I think you can tell the story one way, that you were incredibly intentional at every step. And the other story, that’s equally true, is you believe in yourself and you’re drawn to novelty and just following those two arrows has taken you so many amazing places.